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Jeff Grunewald
New member
Username: Jeffg

Post Number: 1
Registered: 06-2002
Posted on Wednesday, February 21, 2007 - 09:40 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

RenderZone uses LightWorks for rendering so why hasn't RenderZone incorporated LightWorks 7.6 Final Gather yet? It does Global Illumination and radiosity more simply than formZ's Radiozity. I tried the Maxwell plug-in but found it cumbersome. I have questions about how round-tripping would work with maxwell if geometry changes after a maxwell file is created. An incorporated GI renderer in RenderZone would eliminate round-tripping concerns and exporting. FormZ is a great modeler but it's in danger of being left in the dust by other programs that do great realistic lighting and Global Illumination. That Nth degree of realism is what the market for our work is expecting.
I am learning to use modo for its Sub-D modeling and hyper-realistic rendering. I don't think it can handle huge scenes the way formZ does and the way textures are assigned is more complex and cumbersome than in formZ but its soft lighting and the ability to paint directly on the model is superb.
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Matt Edmonds
New member
Username: Mattedmonds

Post Number: 21
Registered: 10-2001
Posted on Wednesday, February 21, 2007 - 11:21 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Which version of Maxwell and FZ are you using?
The Maxwell Studio application does a pretty good job with "round tripping." For example if you need to edit geometry back in FZ and re-import it back into a MXS file that you tweaked Maxwell recongizes the object names you had to begin with and asks you what you want to do with it.... Replace existing objects and ignore all Maxwell Studio changes.... Replace existing files and KEEP and Maxwell Studio changes... etc.
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support@formZ.com
Moderator
Username: Tech

Post Number: 1623
Registered: 04-2001


Posted on Thursday, February 22, 2007 - 08:15 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Jeff,

We are in the process of incorporating LightWorks Final Gather and it should be ready for beta testing soon.

ZWebTech Support
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Des Clarke
Senior Member
Username: Desclarke

Post Number: 157
Registered: 11-2001


Posted on Thursday, February 22, 2007 - 08:35 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Zweb,
Will it be included in a 6.1.x or an "upgrade?

Des
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support@formZ.com
Moderator
Username: Tech

Post Number: 1625
Registered: 04-2001


Posted on Thursday, February 22, 2007 - 08:42 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Des,

Patches fix issues that have been reported.

Adding new features, especially features of this magnitude, require that the file format be changed to accommodate these new features. As such it will be an upgrade.

ZWebTech Support
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Des Clarke
Senior Member
Username: Desclarke

Post Number: 158
Registered: 11-2001


Posted on Thursday, February 22, 2007 - 11:31 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Thanks Zweb, I shall look forward to that...

Des
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Jean-Luc DAUREIL
Senior Member
Username: Jean_luc

Post Number: 172
Registered: 07-2001


Posted on Thursday, February 22, 2007 - 02:57 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Jeff,
Matt is right there is a very usefull work arroud to add geometry during the modeling process to the scene with the studio.

In addition to that the latest plugin is REALLY more productive because you can attribute maxwell materials very easly and it's work perfectly AND, the export process is REALLY faster.

So just type ctrl + M in place of ctrl + K ! :-)


Zwebtech,

Just a precision...
I'm not sure to understand what Lightworks people mean by "final gather"...
I've gone on their website but I'm not sure about I've understood:

Is "Final gather" an additionnal prodecure of a RADIOSITY rendering process or is it a new algorithm such a photon mapping?

Thanks for you response, I hope I don't ask about secrets.

jL
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support@formZ.com
Moderator
Username: Tech

Post Number: 1632
Registered: 04-2001


Posted on Thursday, February 22, 2007 - 03:09 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

jL,

Final Gather is a separate Global Illumination algorithm, which can be used either with, or without RadioZity. (More information should be available soon.)

ZWebTech Support
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Jean-Luc DAUREIL
Senior Member
Username: Jean_luc

Post Number: 175
Registered: 07-2001


Posted on Thursday, February 22, 2007 - 03:14 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

GREAT...
I suppose there is a new rival for Vray...
Thanks

Just an additional question:
Is the future Beta testing available for beta testers only? or is it a public stage?

jL
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support@formZ.com
Moderator
Username: Tech

Post Number: 1633
Registered: 04-2001


Posted on Thursday, February 22, 2007 - 03:22 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

jL,

Announcements on this will come in due time.

ZWebTech Support
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Jean-Luc DAUREIL
Senior Member
Username: Jean_luc

Post Number: 177
Registered: 07-2001


Posted on Thursday, February 22, 2007 - 03:27 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

ok ok :-)
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Jeff Grunewald
New member
Username: Jeffg

Post Number: 2
Registered: 06-2002
Posted on Thursday, February 22, 2007 - 03:36 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I'm just evaluating Maxwell to see if it would work into my toolbox smoothly. I didn't get into it very far yet. Just tried to export some scenes from old projects and see what Maxwell does with them. Some wouldn't export, probably due to some geometry that Maxell doesn't tolerate.
Anyway, I'm glad formZ is incorporating Lightworks latest renderer. The examples on Lightwork's website looked beautiful.
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Dan Kessler
Junior Member
Username: Dkessler

Post Number: 37
Registered: 06-2001
Posted on Thursday, February 22, 2007 - 04:03 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Some limited info on Final Gather...
http://www.lightwork.com/glossary/finalgather.htm
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Richard Rush
Intermediate Member
Username: Rwrush

Post Number: 76
Registered: 04-2001
Posted on Thursday, February 22, 2007 - 04:57 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Zweb, thanks for the update about LightWorks final gather. That's good news. A few questions:

In a posting back on Dec. 12, you said:

"Our version with their 7.6 features, including final gather should be released by the end of the first quarter 2007 (but we can not guarantee it at this time). We actually want to include more features that LightWorks will release with their version 7.7 as the offer additional support to the final gather. And yes, rotation of HDRI lights will be one of the features of our next version."
Is all that still correct? I haven't seen anything yet on the Lightworks website yet regarding version 7.7. And will HDRI light rotation be implemented?

And since we're talking about RenderZone, I have a request. Actually I'm requesting the return of something that had been there and was taken away in version 6.x. I often do repeated test rendering in one small window while placing/moving entourage elements in another window. There was a period of time (during the 5.x versions, I believe) whereby if I moved something while a rendered image was in another window, I could hold down a key combination while moving to delay the re-render. Then, when I released the keys the re-render would start. Now it is not possible to move anything without reverting to wireframe first. It seems to me that delay of the re-render could (or should?) be the default behavior. One might ask why I don't use openGL during this process - the answer is that openGL doesn't work with the "keep vertical lines straight" option.

Richard
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support@formZ.com
Moderator
Username: Tech

Post Number: 1634
Registered: 04-2001


Posted on Thursday, February 22, 2007 - 05:29 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Richard,

Yes, we have not changed these plans, and we have your request on our suggestions list. :-)

ZWebTech Support
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Adam
Junior Member
Username: Adzling

Post Number: 38
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Thursday, February 22, 2007 - 06:01 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

HI zweb, I have a question related to this.
1). I own formz radiozity.
2). I have never used and now do not plan on using radiozity.
3). Will it make a difference functionally if I do not renew radiozity at the next upgrade point?
I.E. will any future render upgrades to the underlying lightworks render module neccessitate a radiozity license?

thanks!

Adam

(Message edited by adzling on February 22, 2007)
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Matt Edmonds
New member
Username: Mattedmonds

Post Number: 22
Registered: 10-2001
Posted on Thursday, February 22, 2007 - 06:34 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I asked a similar question recently... The thing I did not understand was that once you've bought Radiozity, your upgrade path always includes it. You cant "go back" to standard Renderzone.
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Josephus Holt
Junior Member
Username: Josephus

Post Number: 29
Registered: 09-2006
Posted on Thursday, February 22, 2007 - 08:56 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Hmmm, I have 2 RZ/RR licenses and would also like to "drop down" to just Renderzone. My initial trial with Radiozity was so disappointing that I've never done any more with it, was able to get much better images w/Renderzone, which also is much easier to use. I really don't want to continue to get "penalized" for making a poor choice about Radiozity.
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Josephus Holt
Junior Member
Username: Josephus

Post Number: 30
Registered: 09-2006
Posted on Thursday, February 22, 2007 - 10:31 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I just checked the Lightworks website and was reminded that the Final Gather that we'll see in Renderzone will be a "one-bounce" GI, while Final Gather in Radiozity will be "multiple-bounce" GI. We might want to check that out before "downgrading" ourselves out of Radiozity (if that even can be done...Matt indicating that he thought not).
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support@formZ.com
Moderator
Username: Tech

Post Number: 1635
Registered: 04-2001


Posted on Friday, February 23, 2007 - 08:21 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Gentlemen,

I am confused why you would like to "downgrade" from RadioZity to RenderZone. (RenderZone is exactly like RadioZity except that it lacks the RadioZity Attributes for objects, and the RadioZity commands from the Display Menu.) The RadioZity version includes all of the features that RenderZone does, (but if for some reason you would like to drop RadioZity, you can...).

ZWebTech Support
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Andrew Dehus
Junior Member
Username: Adios

Post Number: 36
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Friday, February 23, 2007 - 08:26 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Wow, Josephus... that doesn't sound very inviting to me... I'll withhold judgement until we hear the official announcement from autodessys, but I suspect I'd be pretty irritated if renderzone's upgrade path was to an artificially crippled version of final gather. FormZ's been *well* behind the game in rendering for a long time, and even their basic render module should be equal to that of the base level for Modo, C4d, Lightwave, etc... particularly given the price premium for FormZ relative to most of them.

IMHO, ADS should evaluate the value proposition very carefully, and consider the PR angle as well. After all, there's been no greater source of frustration for this forum than the lackluster performance of the current implementation of Lightworks.
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Jean-Luc DAUREIL
Senior Member
Username: Jean_luc

Post Number: 179
Registered: 07-2001


Posted on Friday, February 23, 2007 - 08:31 am:   Edit Post Print Post

ZWebTech and all,

If i understand well, Lightworks final gather will be available at two levels.

In Renderzone, we will be able to produce a "one bounce" calculus and with Radiosity we will use the result of the radiosity process as basis (or source) for a multiple bounces rendering.

Please let me know if I'm right...

In this case, I suppose it could be a real improvement for all of you that were disapointed by radiosity.
So as we talk here "it's urgent to wait"...for a potential impossible downgrade as for upgrade.

jL
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Josephus Holt
Junior Member
Username: Josephus

Post Number: 31
Registered: 09-2006
Posted on Friday, February 23, 2007 - 09:39 am:   Edit Post Print Post

FZ, it's about spending $$ and not getting a return. Unless I'm mistaken, the upgrade costs for FZ/RZ/RR are more than for FZ/RZ only. When I purchased my second license, since I already had a FZ/RR/RZ license, I ended up buying a second FZ/RZ/RR seat on the same license #, something I now regret having done, but at the time it seemed like a good idea. Now I wish that I had purchased a separate FZ/RZ license (rather than a second seat).

Andrew. I don't think that the Final Gather for Renderzone is an artifically crippled version of the Radiozity version, I believe it's more a factor of the mathematics involved in RZ and RR. Jean-Luc's explanation is helpful. Otherwise, I'm in complete agreement with what you say. I expect that Final Gather for Renderzone will be a significant improvement, but will still fall short a flight of stairs from Mental Ray and VRay. As far as I'm concerned, Final Gather is a temporary measure until another (besides Maxwell) third party plug-in arrives, which I've been told is in the works. It seems quite certain it will not be VRay, but perhaps Mental Ray. Either one would make me a happy camper as far as this huge frustration is concerned.

J-L, your explanation is well worded and is as I also understand it. I'm not holding out much expectation for Radiozity even w/Final Gather, but as you suggest, it would be expedient to wait and try it out before "downgrading" to Renderzone to save a few $$ on upgrades.

I'm rather optimistic that 2007 will be a year of major improvements in FZ for us in the architectural profession, that with FZ we'll be in the same ballpark as those using 3DS, Viz, ADT, Archicad/C4D, etc.
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support@formZ.com
Moderator
Username: Tech

Post Number: 1636
Registered: 04-2001


Posted on Friday, February 23, 2007 - 11:33 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Josephus,

This is forum is not the place for sales talk, but the update costs for RadioZity are (and have been) the same as for RenderZone. And you may want to reserve judgment on how our global illuminations compare with other software until after you have seen what it can do... (That's all we can say for now...)

ZWebTech Support
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Jean-Luc DAUREIL
Senior Member
Username: Jean_luc

Post Number: 182
Registered: 07-2001


Posted on Friday, February 23, 2007 - 11:53 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Just in addition to what Zwebtech said, I just suppose a one bounce render engine will be very fast in compraison of more complex approach...

I've don't seen anything about caustics... may I missed something in this area?

jL