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Stanton Cooper
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Username: Sico

Post Number: 1
Registered: 12-2012
Posted on Monday, December 03, 2012 - 01:51 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Hi, how can I prevent different objects which share the same material to be shown as one uniform block in a rendering (RZ)? My model is composed of numerous wooden laths which optically merge to one single object in RZ and in Shaded Full Display.
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support@formZ.com
Moderator
Username: Tech

Post Number: 18372
Registered: 04-2001


Posted on Monday, December 03, 2012 - 02:06 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Hi Stanton,

Welcome to the forum!

Does leaving a gap between the objects -- or using a Bump Map (with same image as your texture map) do what you want?

If not, please save a small JPG image of what you are seeing, and post it using the Upload Attachment button below.
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Joe Siggia
Senior Member
Username: Jsiggia

Post Number: 621
Registered: 05-2001


Posted on Monday, December 03, 2012 - 02:12 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Stanton,

You might try rounding or beveling the edges of your objects.

Joe
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Stanton Cooper
New member
Username: Sico

Post Number: 2
Registered: 12-2012
Posted on Monday, December 03, 2012 - 02:59 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Hi, leaving a gap between the objects (as well as rounding or beveling them) would do what I want (in RZ), but then I wouldn't have a precise 3D model and 2D drawings anymore... since the wooden laths really have to touch each other. Maybe the bump map could be an idea... i never worked with bump maps till now...
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Stanton Cooper
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Username: Sico

Post Number: 3
Registered: 12-2012
Posted on Monday, December 03, 2012 - 03:09 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Hmmm... but then I need a separate material with its own bump map assigned for each different wood lath width...
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support@formZ.com
Moderator
Username: Tech

Post Number: 18377
Registered: 04-2001


Posted on Monday, December 03, 2012 - 03:10 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Can you post a picture of what you have in Wireframe and RenderZone?
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Joe Siggia
Senior Member
Username: Jsiggia

Post Number: 622
Registered: 05-2001


Posted on Monday, December 03, 2012 - 04:40 pm:   Edit Post Print Post



(Message edited by jsiggia on December 03, 2012)
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Bo Atkinson
Senior Member
Username: Boa

Post Number: 640
Registered: 05-2001


Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2012 - 03:18 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Adding angled lighting with shadow effects might help but if you want a very hard edge, then try any of the first 4 Modify tools, to generate a hard edge at the junction. In a sense, Z is rendering honestly in that the user has to define boundaries as deliberately modeled or, if not deliberately modeled, leave it looking ambiguous. (To keep file size down, save smaller copy before Modify action. Modified objects might make something more complex and not needed in future).
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Stanton Cooper
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Username: Sico

Post Number: 4
Registered: 12-2012
Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2012 - 09:08 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Here are two images of a part of the project. As you can see, the objects have different heights, so i can't work with bump. Isn't it possible to overlay object boundary lines (similar to those in hidden line display) to a renderzone image... this would do the job.


wireframe
renderzone
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support@formZ.com
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Username: Tech

Post Number: 18387
Registered: 04-2001


Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2012 - 09:14 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Stanton,

Yes, you can enable Render as Wireframe. Which version of formZ are you using?

(You can also use a Bump Map if you like -- but that map would likely need to be modified from the original color map...)
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Stanton Cooper
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Username: Sico

Post Number: 5
Registered: 12-2012
Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2012 - 11:11 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Normally I am using version 6.7.2 at school, but I was trying around with a trial version 7 now.
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support@formZ.com
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Username: Tech

Post Number: 18392
Registered: 04-2001


Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2012 - 11:22 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Stanton,

To set Render As Wireframe for RenderZone in formZ 7, pick the object, click the Attributes Tab of the Pick Options, change the Basic Attributes to RenderZone, and select Render as Wireframe...

Does this give you what you want?

If you are a full time student (or professor) using formZ for academic purposes, you can sign up for a free student license here if you like:

http://www.formz.com/academic/academic.html
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Stanton Cooper
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Username: Sico

Post Number: 6
Registered: 12-2012
Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2012 - 11:36 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Thanks for your info, but currently I don't have a student card. Maybe I'll have one soon...

Yes, this gives me (almost) what I want... can I set the color and intensity of the wireframe? Now it's white, but should be gray (and maybe thinner lines)...
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support@formZ.com
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Username: Tech

Post Number: 18393
Registered: 04-2001


Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2012 - 11:39 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Stanton,

Yes, the color is set via the Attributes: Basic: Lines / Edges Color setting...
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Stanton Cooper
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Username: Sico

Post Number: 7
Registered: 12-2012
Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2012 - 02:09 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Thanks a lot, that's great and will be very helpful in some specific situations. Hovewer, it isn't now... since I discovered the wireframe lines aren't affected by shadows, thus disappearing in shadows if they are dark or having to much contrast if they are bright coloured.

Something else: I tried not to stick the objects together but leaving 0,4cm between them... but in RZ they still appear as if it was one unique surface. How come? Even switching on Ambient Occlusion nothing changes...

(Message edited by sico on December 04, 2012)
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support@formZ.com
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Username: Tech

Post Number: 18398
Registered: 04-2001


Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2012 - 02:21 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Based on your view, how many pixels does 0.4 cm represent?

(If this is less than 1, then you will not be able to see it, so you can either leave a bigger gap, or render at a higher resolution...)
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Paul Hunnicutt
Senior Member
Username: Asonearchitecture

Post Number: 403
Registered: 08-2011
Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2012 - 02:24 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I've had to increase the gap and/or make it the joint deeper between objects than it actually would be in real life to get a noticeable shadow line. If you are producing a rendering instead of construction documents you can cheat a bit. Stucco control joints are like often like this.

You can also render just the joint lines as a specific line weight (wireframe, hidden line) and in Photoshop overlay the lines on top of the rendering.

(Message edited by asonearchitecture on December 04, 2012)
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Stanton Cooper
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Username: Sico

Post Number: 8
Registered: 12-2012
Posted on Wednesday, December 05, 2012 - 05:48 am:   Edit Post Print Post

It's really sad there isn't any setting to strengthen object boundaries in RZ. After all it's not realistic at all how RZ is rendering those separate objects, since in "real life" one can always see there are different objects, even if they are sharing the same material, and even if there isn't a noticeable gap between them.

RZ doesn't make any difference between separate objects and objects merged together using the union tool, for example...

@Paul:
"If you are producing a rendering instead of construction documents you can cheat a bit."

The problem is I AM making construction documents as well... thus I need to construct different 3D models for each purpose... :-(

(Message edited by sico on December 05, 2012)
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support@formZ.com
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Username: Tech

Post Number: 18402
Registered: 04-2001


Posted on Wednesday, December 05, 2012 - 08:33 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Stanton,

Real objects do not meet perfectly, and do not have perfectly square corners. If they did, then they would look like your rendering. You can either adjust the geometry (perhaps by applying a small bevel, or by applying a bump map, both of which were suggested earlier. If you are concerned with construction documents, then use the Bump Map option...
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Stanton Cooper
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Username: Sico

Post Number: 9
Registered: 12-2012
Posted on Wednesday, December 05, 2012 - 09:07 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Maybe there should be a setting or a filter to simulate this...

Thank you anyway! :-)
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Joe Siggia
Senior Member
Username: Jsiggia

Post Number: 623
Registered: 05-2001


Posted on Wednesday, December 05, 2012 - 09:13 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Stanton,

If you did use beveled objects, you could also create your unbeveled objects in the same place then hide the beveled ones when you went to make your docs.

Joe
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support@formZ.com
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Username: Tech

Post Number: 18406
Registered: 04-2001


Posted on Wednesday, December 05, 2012 - 09:15 am:   Edit Post Print Post

That's what the bump map is for!

1
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support@formZ.com
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Username: Tech

Post Number: 18407
Registered: 04-2001


Posted on Wednesday, December 05, 2012 - 09:16 am:   Edit Post Print Post

(Here's the Wireframe...)

1

(You could also potentially just paint a stripe on your image map in Photoshop and map it so it aligns with your objects if you wanted to do this without bump mapping...)
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Stanton Cooper
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Username: Sico

Post Number: 10
Registered: 12-2012
Posted on Wednesday, December 05, 2012 - 11:18 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Yes, thank you... the bump could be very useful, if only my objects had all the same height (or if at least they didn't have so many different heights).
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Stanton Cooper
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Username: Sico

Post Number: 11
Registered: 12-2012
Posted on Wednesday, December 05, 2012 - 11:54 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Wouldn't a bump function which automatically follows object and/or face boundaries be a great idea to enhance realism in a future version of FormZ?

I promise I would buy a full version for private use then. :-) :-)
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markus groeteke
Senior Member
Username: 3dworks

Post Number: 475
Registered: 11-2002


Posted on Wednesday, December 05, 2012 - 12:21 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

...maybe autodessys could also provide a flexible occlusion or 'dirt' shader in the future?
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Stanton Cooper
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Username: Sico

Post Number: 12
Registered: 12-2012
Posted on Wednesday, December 05, 2012 - 01:14 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Same issue, Markus? Guess I'm not alone, then...
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Paul Hunnicutt
Senior Member
Username: Asonearchitecture

Post Number: 404
Registered: 08-2011
Posted on Wednesday, December 05, 2012 - 04:08 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

really??? that is what's holding you back from buying FormZ?

There are so many ways to skin this cat...remember you aren't trying to literally build the building in 3D. A shadow line between boards will either be from chamfered edges or gaps between boards in reality. So applying either to your model would only increase the realism for a CD set.

Producing a rendered image and a CD set are two different things. The sooner you learn that, understand how it affects 3D modeling, and accept it the better. You don't need to model everything for a CD set. On the other hand you might have to do some things for renderings that aren't required for a CD set.

If the bump map shown above isn't working for you, then map each board individually and add a shadow line to the edge of your wood map in Photoshop.
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Peder Lindbom
Senior Member
Username: Peder

Post Number: 1203
Registered: 04-2001


Posted on Thursday, December 06, 2012 - 02:39 am:   Edit Post Print Post

There are other softwares that can apply a bevel to an edge as a render time option. I have asked for something similar in the past. Or as a limited construction history option. The main limitation of bevelling for me is that I often need to produce renders while still working on the geometry and the bevels make it really awkward to continue editing objects.
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rich f
Advanced Member
Username: Rfirkins

Post Number: 104
Registered: 09-2001
Posted on Friday, December 07, 2012 - 12:01 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

> There are other softwares that can apply a bevel to an edge as a render time option.

Was going to mention this. A render option to "round corners" that is non-destructive to the geometry would be super useful. I imagine this would mostly be a Lightworks issue though.

One thing that would help for the original question, I don't think was mentioned - use the texture map tool on each object, just punch in some random numbers for the origin so the map isn't originating at the same place for each object. (maybe tweak the texture size a bit too.) At least then the map will shift around from one piece to the next, instead of appearing as one monolith. (maybe you have done this already, I can't tell..)

(Message edited by rfirkins on December 07, 2012)
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Stanton Cooper
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Username: Sico

Post Number: 14
Registered: 12-2012
Posted on Saturday, December 08, 2012 - 05:54 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Yes, mapping each object manually would be a useful, but very slow, possibility. Consider that my final project will have hundreds of wood laths like those i posted above, all different dimensions (so no predefined bump would do this job).

I guess Peder Lindbom and me have a very similar problem. And "non-destructive" describes best what I would need. (Besides, I'm asking myself: Would beveling each object not make the model much bigger in size and less flexible to modify?)

Paul: Thanks. But yes, this (and few more things) is really what's holding me back from buying FormZ. Since Archicad (for example) offers an almost perfect integration between CAD and 3D... however the 3D-modeling capabilities aren't by far as flexible as in FormZ, of course.

And no: I'm not comparing Archicad and FormZ, but on the other hand I cannot accept that I have to manually go over each rendering with Photoshop (except for some special effects). That's a no go. Finally, I need to make several clipping planes and render all of them... thus it is much easier to have one single 3D model than modeling just those parts I want to render.
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support@formZ.com
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Username: Tech

Post Number: 18448
Registered: 04-2001


Posted on Monday, December 10, 2012 - 08:54 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Gentlemen,

The ability to apply a rendering attribute to round or bevel objects would be useful, so we will see if this can be added for the future. :-)
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Stanton Cooper
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Username: Sico

Post Number: 15
Registered: 12-2012
Posted on Monday, December 10, 2012 - 09:43 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Great!
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Peter O'Brien
Senior Member
Username: Spacer

Post Number: 537
Registered: 09-2006


Posted on Tuesday, December 11, 2012 - 07:42 am:   Edit Post Print Post

"Yes, mapping each object manually would be a useful, but very slow, possibility. Consider that my final project will have hundreds of wood laths like those i posted above.."

possible solution: Do what Rich F told you about mapping separately. To speed up just select and join every other object, so that in the end although you have hundred or milloins of slats, you end up withonly two. then just map each one with an offset so that the mapping shows the difference. if there is too much repetition in that basic solution, then increas the number of bojects and select them more randomly before selecting. five sets of joined objects should give you a natural random feeling, and differentiate enought to see the slats as separate.

"I guess Peder Lindbom and me have a very similar problem. And "non-destructive" describes best what I would need. (Besides, I'm asking myself: Would beveling each object not make the model much bigger in size and less flexible to modify?)"

possible solution: before bevelling, you duplicate the object(s)and always keep an unbevelled set in an 'Archive' group or layer which you can return to later and use.
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support@formZ.com
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Username: Tech

Post Number: 18459
Registered: 04-2001


Posted on Tuesday, December 11, 2012 - 08:34 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Peter,

Yes, keeping an un-beveled copy would certainly be a good way to do this now...
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Peder Lindbom
Senior Member
Username: Peder

Post Number: 1205
Registered: 04-2001


Posted on Tuesday, December 11, 2012 - 09:57 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Thats what Ive been doing -I branch off a version for rendering. It kinda works I suppose.